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Old 19-02-2010, 07:25 PM
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hi everyone its been a while since last logged on to this web site, i would very grateful if i could get your help again, a friend of mine is in a spot of trouble with some debt collectors calling him and sending him numerous letters.
back in 2000 he had a morgan stanley credit card ,he honestly only remembers applying for one, and never signing any other documents apart from the first one.
i wrote them a letter requesting a copy of the signed credit agreement i got the letter from this web site.
Barclays wrote back and wrote a long 3 page letter explaining my friends rights as well as there own and attached 2 photocopied sheets of paper. the first one is tittled in big bold writing application form, and written under it in normal writing it reads credit agreement regulated by the consumer credit act 1974 . source code 107h5zzgf. it has filled in, his date of birth, full address plus how many yrs he has lived there, work address, bank address and bank details,statement date options, and payment protection insurance options,which the box no i do not wish this has been ticked. each of these are numbered 1 to 12, part 10 is tittled the agreement, which reads please send me my morgan stanley credit card and pin, it goes on to say that i confirm all details are true and that a credit check will be carried out . part 11 reads your signature and reads this is a credit agreement regulated by the consumer credit act 1974 sign it only if you want to be legally bound by its terms, my friend has signed it, and its dated 20]04]00 . part 12, reads your write to cancel, it says you have a short time to cancel, details will be sent in the Post by the bank.

now its getting quite confusing for me please bare with me....a few yrs ago my friend told the bank he could no longer afford the repayments becos he was off work ill, the bank stated paying for his repayments via the insurance policy. 3 yrs later the bank tells him he can no longer have his repayments payed via the insurance, 3 yrs being there max time they will pay it. yet they are still charging him paymeny protection every month.

Last edited by michsienna : 19-02-2010 at 08:20 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old 19-02-2010, 07:40 PM
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the second photo copy sheet they have sent is the financial and related particulars which reads about the APRs , i really need to try and scan this and get it on here, it is signed by i guess the person from morgan and stanley, because it reads for office use only. but the date has been changed, the original date has been written over,it was originally different day and month and changed to the date my friend took the card out.i know it could of been a simple error and a genuine mistake.
some thing else i have a couple of statements they recently sent my friend, bare in mind he ent used this card in years, i read on the statement
previous balance from last statement 1,927.38
22nd jan 2010 AXA payment protection 15.52
22nd jan 2010 interest on ur cash balance interest 2.000% 33.67
22nd jan interest on ur standard balance interest 1.527% 2.43
22nd jan interest on your default sum balance interest 1.527%
22nd jan new balance 1,980.20

I'm desperately trying to get hold of my friend. cos on the application form/agreement he did not take out payment protection insurance , i need to double check that with him, im a little unsure what to do next, any help would very much be appreciated x

Last edited by michsienna : 19-02-2010 at 08:11 PM. Reason: missed out some
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Old 20-02-2010, 01:59 PM
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my friend will be bringing over statements today
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Old 23-02-2010, 05:18 PM
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We will need to see what he has and then take it from there
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Old 05-03-2010, 08:50 PM
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hi , thank you for your reply dragon lady,i think i may have messed things up, i sent a letter to barclays, i put in the letter that what they had sent my friend was a copy of the application form and not a copy of the credit agreement. they have today responed with a letter reading ......

i write further to the letter whereby you note dissatifaction to the documents you recieved in relation toa request made under section 77/78 of the consumer credit act 1974.

firstly, credit cards are regulated under section 78.section 78 (1) of the act states that the creditor shall give the debtor a copy of te executed agreement and a statement of account which is practicable to refer. regarding a statement of account which is practicable to refer, the letterswhich we send in responce to a section 78 (1) request includes this infomation. to cover the issue of executed agreement.

how does the act define a "executed agreement"?
"executed agreement" is defined in section 189 of the act as "a document , signed by or behalf of the parties, embodying the terms of a regulated agreement"

what do the rules say about proving a copy?
the consumer credit ( cancellation notices and copies of documents) regulations 1983 ("the regulations") made under the act deal with how we are to provide a "copy" of an agreement. these regulations provide that any copy. regulations 3(2) provides that a copy may omit certain information, which allows you to be provided with a true copy, not a complete copy.

what happens if the original agreement has been varid since it was originally signed?
the regulations also set out what should happen wheree the agreement has been varied since it was signed. regulation 7 provides creditors with a choice of including in the copy of the executed agreement either a copy of the latest notice of variations relating to each discrete term which has been varied, or an easily legible statement of terms varid. regulation 7 does not state that the copy of the agreement shall include a statement of varid terms. regulation 7 allows us to provide you with a "true copy" which sets out the terms and condtions current at the time of the provision of the copy.

conclution in relation to the document we have to provide
a "copy" of an agreement will satifly the requirements even if the signature box and/or the signatures are not included as clarified by regulation 3 (2) of the consumer credit (cancellation notices and copies of document) regulationns 1983.
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Old 05-03-2010, 09:36 PM
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the defination of "executed agreement" refers to a document embodying the terms of the regulated agreement. when this is read with regulations 7 - for agreements that have been varid would embody its terms.

the issue of what is an executed agreement had been interpreted in the high court. it was held that an executed agreement begins as the credit agreement which is sent to the card holder when they recieve there creit card;therefore , estabilshing what is the original executed agreement. when the agreement. when the agreement has been varied, regulation 7 mentioned above applies.

to summerise, if the agreement has not been varied, we must send the original executed agreement ;this would be the credit agreement which is currently regulated. if the credit agreement has been varied, we must send the current credit agreementas this will contain the terms of the regulated agreement. we have sent you this and the original executed agreement for reference.

to address any issue about our lack of compliance with section 60 of the consumer credit act 1974. section 60 relates to the form and content agreement. all barclaycard credit agreements are in compliance with this. you may state that the application form which we provide you, you may state that the application form which we provied you, for reference, when you made the request under section 78 does not adhere to section 60. this is not a complete copy of your application form, but rather an excerpt to show you signed a contract with us. when you completed your application form, the document would have been presented to you in full, in a legible form, and would have adhered to the requirements under section 60 od the consumer creit act 1974.

with referrence to the civil procedure rules ( the "CPR") we have provied you with sufficient information information to allow you to understand our postion. the CPR does not confer an automatic entilement to documents before proceedings start. CPR 31.16 provides that aprty may apply to the court for pre-action disclosure in certain limited circumstances, which do not apply here. the application must be supported by evidence- and the usual order is for the applicant to pay the costs of the application, including the resondents costs, together with the respondents costs of the compling with any order that is made as a result (CPR 48.1(2)).

while there is no formal obligation on our part to provide documentation in answer to validation of debt correspondence, we have undertaken steps to provide you with the contractual terms under which your financial obligations arise and a statement of account.

i am full fully satisfied that the sum outstanding by you remains legally due and payable. you should continue to repay the outstanding balance owed on your account in accordance with the terms of your credit agreement. if you do not, we may register a default against you with a creditt reference agencies, although we will formally notify you before doing so.

i hope this letter has helped with your concerns about the documents you have been supplied with under sction 78 of the consumer cret act 1974.
as our responce fulfils the obligation under section 78 of the consumer credit act 1974, you should carry on paying the debt you have accrued on your account. we do not class the account in dispute, you have been supplied with the relevent documentation under section 78 of the consumer credit act 1974, and we will carry on with collection services. if you send us further correspondence questioning compliance with these areas of law, we are not obliged to respond beyond the satutory respone we have already given you. we would require you to provide comprehensive ascertain whether responce is necessary.

yours sincerly
customer services
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Old 05-03-2010, 10:57 PM
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Thats better than a script from Eastenders LOL.

Barclaycard have just shown their hand.Mugs!!!

By the way is this a pre 2007 agreement

Term
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The real evil is not the payment of money, but the secrecy attending it (Chitty L.J. in the case of Shipway v Broadwood [1899] 1 QB 369, 373). .

The courts shall not make an enforcement order under section 65(1) if section 61(1)(a) (signing of agreements) was not complied with unless a document (whether or not in the prescribed form and complying with regulations under section 60(1)) itself containing all the prescribed terms of the agreement was signed by the debtor or hirer (whether or not in the prescribed manner

Moneylending transactions as a class give rise to significant social problems.

Astalavista baby and I'll be back

Last edited by The Terminator : 05-03-2010 at 11:18 PM.
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Old 06-03-2010, 10:21 AM
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hi term its really good to hear from you, the card was took out in 2000 ,
20th april 2000. the only thing that was ever signed was the application form

Last edited by michsienna : 06-03-2010 at 10:35 AM.
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Old 06-03-2010, 05:08 PM
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Tey complied with Section 78 as the law stands today. ( the courts accept this) All they have is an application form. Now you have to get them to produce the Agreement and the correct T & C's in force at the time. If they try to start legal proceding you then use the CPR protocols for the Agreement and T & C's. They have been warned they have to produce these in Court.
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Old 06-03-2010, 08:56 PM
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hi thank you for repyling, so can i still reply to there letter regarding this, becos in there letter it reads
,if you send us further correnspondence questioning compliance with these areas of law, we are not obliged to respond beyond the statutory responce we have already given you. we would require you to provide comrhensive legal and documentry evidence to support your claim to assertain whether responce is necessary,

im not at all sure what to do or write to them next
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