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  #1  
Old 12-01-2008, 11:46 AM
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MrDarcy MrDarcy is offline
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Default MrDarcy - No CCA - CRAs response

I recently sent complaints to 3 Credit Reference Agencies - Experian, Equifax and Call Credit - disputing the information they hold me due to some Creditors inability to supply properly executed agreements. I have had my first reply (below) and will post the others if/when i get them:

EXPERIAN:

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t...7/DSCF6891.jpg
http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t...7/DSCF6892.jpg
http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t...7/DSCF6893.jpg
http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t...7/DSCF6894.jpg
http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t...7/DSCF6895.jpg
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-Any advise I give is based purely on my own experience or opinion. It should not be solely relied upon as a statement of the law

HFC Bank - (unenforceable)
Barclays - Agreement received - no spare cash right now
Cahoot - Agreement received
- no spare cash right now
MBNA1&2 - sold to Link Financial. Ignoring me for ages
Halifax - Sold to Cabot - Complaint sent to ICO - Incomplete SAR
MINT - Regal Credit (unenforceable)
Amex - AIC (unenforceable)
Cap1 *Won* 1,500 Written off
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  #2  
Old 12-01-2008, 01:36 PM
sparkie1723 sparkie1723 is offline
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Have a look at the thread "incorrect info credit ref agecies" you will find that the answers you have received a nothing but rubbish.

Cra's have a duty not only under the DPA to ensure the info is correct and not merely take the word of who supplied it, they have a legal duty to proffer due care and dilligence to obtain the proof necessary for them to process data about you and pass it on to third parties.

They themselves have a contract with their clients that specifically states they have to have obtained your permission given at the time of signing any agreement to enable lawfull access to the CRA data base.
Demand the CRA's obtain a proof of that consent. If they cannot get it demandthey remove all data appertainig to you about it.

sparkie
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  #3  
Old 12-01-2008, 02:02 PM
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Thanks Sparkie! I was of a mind to leave alone but after you put it so eloquently i will reply to Experian including your persuasive argument and will be keen to see what their reply is!
__________________
-Any advise I give is based purely on my own experience or opinion. It should not be solely relied upon as a statement of the law

HFC Bank - (unenforceable)
Barclays - Agreement received - no spare cash right now
Cahoot - Agreement received
- no spare cash right now
MBNA1&2 - sold to Link Financial. Ignoring me for ages
Halifax - Sold to Cabot - Complaint sent to ICO - Incomplete SAR
MINT - Regal Credit (unenforceable)
Amex - AIC (unenforceable)
Cap1 *Won* 1,500 Written off
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  #4  
Old 12-01-2008, 08:34 PM
sparkie1723 sparkie1723 is offline
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HI MrDarcy,

I have had personal dealings with Mr Lee Hancock, in fact I am at this moment in time, I've made him eat his words a copuple of times in the past, the letter you have received is a fairly standard one with a few variations, I note that he takes sections of the Fourth Principle what Experian put forward to rely on and quotes them to you.

What he doesn't say is that under the DPA 1998 CRA's are now merely not data processors as they were under the old 1984 DPA they are in fact data controllers who receive data, change, alter, and further process data, and that makes them data controllers, and data controllers have the legal responsibility to ensure that the data that they process is accurate true and correct, and that the individuals have indeed agreed to that processing.

What he says on page two of his letter are purely assumptions on his behalf, inform Mr Hancock that in a court he would have to show the court how he arrived at these assumptions, without him having taken steps necessary to ensure what he “assumed” was fact.

Given in the legal guidance by the ICO I've posted this a few times.

It is important to note that by virtue of (a) above it is not enough for a data controller to say that, because the information was obtained from either the data subject or a third party, they had done all that they could reasonably have done to ensure the accuracy of the data at the time. Now data controllers may have to go further and take reasonable steps to ensure the accuracy of the data themselves and mark the data with any objections. The extent to which such steps are necessary will be a matter of fact in each individual case and will depend upon the nature of the data and the consequences of the inaccuracy for the data subject. This approach exceeds the requirements of the Fifth Principle in the 1984 Act.

His blanket explanation is not acceptable in relation to the heavy red highlight under the 1998 DPA.


What I have actually placed at Experian’s door ( “Mr Hancock”) is this,…. being as Experian have on their data banks all kinds of information and in legal reality they pass and share this information with all kinds of institutions.

Under the code of information sharing issued by the ICO it says this

However, it should be clear why the sharing is taking place and who is involved in it. If organisations want to share sensitive or confidential information, they are more likely to need your consent. For example, if information about your health is to be shared. That is classed as sensitive information. (Banking Information is considered personal confidential information)If you are asked to consent to information sharing, you should have a genuine free choice. Consent shouldn’t be used as the basis for sharing information if, in reality, you have little or no choice.

Sharing information therefore by Experian without EXPERIAN having your consent.
Is also in breach of Article 8 of the European Convention on Human Rights Act, the right to privacy to home life and correspondence which is embodied in English Law and the Data Protection Act itself.

sparkie

Last edited by sparkie1723 : 13-01-2008 at 05:17 PM.
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  #5  
Old 13-01-2008, 05:19 PM
sparkie1723 sparkie1723 is offline
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This is taken from Experian web site advice, and I have used this against Mr Hancock and asked him to try and explain what he says sometimes. It causes him a few problems.

sparkie
Can anyone search my report?
No, searches can only be made with your consent. This is usually given at the time you apply to a lender.

Can anyone see my credit account information?

No, credit information is private.

Only companies who are members of our account sharing scheme can access credit account information. They can only look at your credit account details if you have given them permission. They usually get your permission when you complete their credit application form.
Our credit account sharing scheme is strictly regulated. Lenders can only see the same level of the information that they provide and must abide by strict rules that clearly list how information can be used.

My view of this is this also means who can supply the CRA’s with information if they haven’t got your consent they can’t supply any, and its up to the CRA’s to obtain proof from the supplier that they have got your consent not merely say….. its “usually given” ……that’s unacceptable, and can’t be used as a get out by the CRA’s
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  #6  
Old 14-01-2008, 11:09 AM
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Thanks again sparkie.. lots of info i can use there to put together into my reply which i am working on at the mo! I'll post that here before sending
__________________
-Any advise I give is based purely on my own experience or opinion. It should not be solely relied upon as a statement of the law

HFC Bank - (unenforceable)
Barclays - Agreement received - no spare cash right now
Cahoot - Agreement received
- no spare cash right now
MBNA1&2 - sold to Link Financial. Ignoring me for ages
Halifax - Sold to Cabot - Complaint sent to ICO - Incomplete SAR
MINT - Regal Credit (unenforceable)
Amex - AIC (unenforceable)
Cap1 *Won* 1,500 Written off
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  #7  
Old 14-01-2008, 12:06 PM
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How's this?

Dear Mr Hancock,
Thank you for your quick reply to my letter dated 8 Jan 2008 in reference to incorrect data held by Experian.

I find I must disagree with some of the assumptions you make regarding Credit Reference Agencies (CRAs) responsibilities and legal duties though. You stated in your letter that "companies are not obliged to supply us with an actual copy of the agreement", so I must ask what measure is taken to ensure that companies that supply adverse information to Experian are authorised to do so? It seems to imply that Experian merely 'take the word' of a company to process an individual's credit file without ascertaining the correct documentation exists to allow the processing of said data in the first instance.

You also state that: "If a company can demonstrate that an account was being paid on time for a number of months/years prior to falling into arrears, this is often seen as evidence that the individual concerned must have consented to the terms and conditions of the contract."
The example that you use, would hardly constitute 'evidence' of the existence of a properly executed agreement but only that an individual, at some point, made payments towards an account that could just as easily be improperly executed and unenforceable.
Just because a loan or credit card has an inception date a CRA may perceive that an individual has at some point agreed to a contract with a company but this contract must be a properly executed agreement, containing all the prescribed terms as laid out in the Consumer Credit Act 1974 of Office of Fair Trading Guidelines and for a CRA to make the assumption that it is legally enforceable on the sole bases that previous payments have been made in regards to that contract is only guess work based on the part of the CRA and not a legal fact that would be enforced in a court of law.

Under the Data Protection Act 1998 (DPA) CRAs are no longer data processors as they were under the previous 1984 DPA but are now classed as data controllers who receive, change, alter, and further process data and as data controllers have the legal responsibility to ensure that the data that they process is accurate true and correct, and that the individuals concerned have indeed agreed to that processing. According to the Information Commissioners Office (ICO) "It is important to note that by virtue of (a) above it is not enough for a data controller to say that, because the information was obtained from either the data subject or a third party, they had done all that they could reasonably have done to ensure the accuracy of the data at the time." The assumption that agreements are properly executed or that an individual must have given consent due past payments made to a company, as previously stated, would not constitute evidence and for a CRA to accept that situation without trying to obtain further proof of consent would not constitute 'reasonable steps' or taking 'due care'.
This seems clear also under the code of information shared issued by the ICO in that "However, it should be clear why the sharing is taking place and who is involved in it. If organisations want to share sensitive or confidential information, they are more likely to need your consent... Banking Information is considered personal confidential information. If you are asked to consent to information sharing, you should have a genuine free choice. Consent shouldn’t be used as the basis for sharing information if, in reality, you have little or no choice."

Experian's website also states that "Only companies who are members of our account sharing scheme can access credit account information. They can only look at your credit account details if you have given them permission. They usually get your permission when you complete their credit application form." I believe this statement to be incorrect as its up to the CRA’s to obtain proof from the supplier that they have got your consent not merely say its “usually given”. That is unacceptable and could not be enforced in a court of law as a CRA would need to show that they had taken reasonable steps to confirm the processing of data.

I would appreciate a personal and prompt reply as this is a serious issue and as it stands i cannot see how the policy of Experian equates to compliance in reference to the information and guidance supplied by the ICO, consumer credit acts and Experian's website information.

Yours sincerely, me
__________________
-Any advise I give is based purely on my own experience or opinion. It should not be solely relied upon as a statement of the law

HFC Bank - (unenforceable)
Barclays - Agreement received - no spare cash right now
Cahoot - Agreement received
- no spare cash right now
MBNA1&2 - sold to Link Financial. Ignoring me for ages
Halifax - Sold to Cabot - Complaint sent to ICO - Incomplete SAR
MINT - Regal Credit (unenforceable)
Amex - AIC (unenforceable)
Cap1 *Won* 1,500 Written off
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  #8  
Old 14-01-2008, 02:26 PM
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MrDarcy MrDarcy is offline
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In the light of day i think my letter is a bit weak. I may throw the following into the letter also as otherwise i am just stating facts rather than demanding action:

section 41 of the Information Commissioners Default Guidance Version 3.

"Credit reference agencies potentially have a defence against action through the courts by individuals who successfully challenge the accuracy of data received from a lender. However, this defence is only available if the agency takes reasonable steps to make sure the data is accurate and, as soon as they become aware of the challenge, takes steps to mark the file accordingly. Records where the accuracy is challenged can be marked as ‘under query’. This marker alone is unlikely to be sufficient to provide protection against claims, including those for compensation.

Agencies should therefore ask the lender to substantiate the disputed information within a reasonable time frame, for example, 28 days, and, if the lender is unable to substantiate the disputed information in that time, should suppress the information from the file."
__________________
-Any advise I give is based purely on my own experience or opinion. It should not be solely relied upon as a statement of the law

HFC Bank - (unenforceable)
Barclays - Agreement received - no spare cash right now
Cahoot - Agreement received
- no spare cash right now
MBNA1&2 - sold to Link Financial. Ignoring me for ages
Halifax - Sold to Cabot - Complaint sent to ICO - Incomplete SAR
MINT - Regal Credit (unenforceable)
Amex - AIC (unenforceable)
Cap1 *Won* 1,500 Written off
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  #9  
Old 16-01-2008, 10:23 AM
tifonet tifonet is offline
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i'm going to be doing the same thing with CRA's soon as none of my DCA's have sent anything yet continue to default me and chase the accounts.
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  #10  
Old 16-01-2008, 10:27 AM
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happyhour happyhour is offline
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yup letter + extra bit looks good!
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PLEASE NOTE :

I am always happy to give my time, advice and support without prejudice and based only on my own experience and knowledge, however, you must seek legal counsel if you are at all unsure of your claim......

Please do not publish my posts elsewhere without my express permission beforehand. Thank you!
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